Why Can't We All Just Get Along

...or rather, HOW can we all get along better?

This is a subject that has been a source of great controversy on some message boards and amongst some of my friends, so I am going to try to tread carefully.

We're in this together, so why does it seem that there is often tension between the spouses of soldiers of different ranks.  More importantly, what can we do to encourage understanding and camaraderie?

I couldn't tell you the ranks of any of the spouses of the authors on SpouseBUZZ.  It does not matter--other than as a detail in one of their stories.  They are all interesting and compelling people in their own rights.

Every time the subject has come up, everyone I know agrees: "I know I can be friends with anyone I wish--I'm not in the military--I don't care what your husband's rank is."  And yet, I still hear remarks from spouses of enlisted and officers that the other "side" will not make friends, that "they" do not understand.

There was the First Sergeant's wife invited to a coffee who angrily responded, "I'm not an officer's wife, you do not need to be calling me."  Another wife who accused the commander's wife of being "A typical officer's wife." A senior NCO's wife who yelled at the Specialist's wife who had been kind enough to volunteer as a key caller, "Do you know who my husband is?  Do you think I need to get information from you?" And the countless examples that I've heard second or third hand.

I'm not really interested in trading barbs, stereotypes, and horror stories, though; I'm more interested in how we can move past this.

So many military spouses long for a connection with others who are going through the same ups and downs of military life.  We move around so much that it seems foolish to reject an entire group of potential friends based on their spouses' ranks.

I genuinely believe most spouses wish to be open to any potential friends, so I suspect that part of the issue might lie in larger forces that have become part of the social institutions of the military.

I suppose this topic can be extended out to include other "subgroups" that exist--male and female spouses, for example.

I'm a traditionalist, but maybe there are some traditions that are best left behind.  Perhaps we should eliminate social groups that reinforce these divisions?  Or do officers' spouses and enlisteds' spouses have separate concerns that really require separate social organizations on the unit or installation levels?

What I really want to hear are your ideas.

So, what roadblocks exist (that we can actually address)?  How can we as a group promote better ties between spouses?

Comments

[k]

1st spouses need to get it through their heads that we do NOT wear our soldiers rank, whether it's mosquito wings or chevrons, bars or stars. Rank has no bearing on whether someone is a good person or worthy of your time & friendship. As military spouses we all have the same fears and concerns regardless of what is on our soldier's uniforms. Bullets don't descriminate, neither should we.

2nd the Army needs to get rid of OSC and ESC. Why not have an Army Spouses Club and anyone that can pay the dues and participates can be involved, regardless of a soldiers rank? Seems to me more would get accomplished if the two joined forces.

[Army&AFwife]

I don’t seem to come across many people who have jumped services and ranks too often so I feel my experience may lend some insight to this subject. As an active-duty enlisted army soldier’s wife, I was keenly aware of the role rank played in my military social life. I largely ignored the back-biting and name-calling that seemed to wander through both social circles (enlisted and officer) and tried to stay focused on the individual rather than spousal rank. It wasn’t until we [he] had been active duty for many years and we [he] switched to the air force and became an officer that I began to realize some of that rank distinction has it’s function in our war fighting machine.

As army enlisted families we lived on the post. It was what was affordable. When the troops were away we had our own enlisted support group as well as a larger support group under the direction of the company commander’s wife. We were often encouraged to try and maintain a certain level of conduct when it came to conversing with officer spouses because no one (enlisted or officer) wanted to be accused of fraternization. And, in a combat situation, one can argue that a unit needs to maintain that level of respect and distinction (not all spouses have a backbone and can separate the two) in order to carry out orders effectively. Contrast that way of life, and that way of thinking to the life currently lived as an officer’s family in the air force. We live off base (officers can afford it) and consequently I know little of the people or their families my husband works with because we don’t live in the same areas. It’s no secret that air force personnel are not the group of choice to head a charge. Therefore, there seems to exist a very informal manner in which officers, enlisted personnel and their respective families seem to interact--ranks indicate pay scales and not authority. We’ve also noticed that similar informality amongst our guard friends and my guess is it’s rooted in the fact that it is the guard.

No matter what the rank, the branch, the activity, or the pay scale, no one can stop some aspects of human nature. There will always be people ready to act out in unkind ways because of envy, personal short-comings, or misunderstandings. In my experience, on the whole, the entire enlisted and officer military community (and anyone that is related to or knows a service man or woman) has been very accepting and accommodating. So I feel badly for those (enlisted and officer) who aren’t willing to let go of those vices that will inevitably lead them down a road paved for solitude. In essence, just use common sense in your dealings with other spouses and families. What may be right for one branch of the military might not be so good for another.

[Jan Wesner]

First, in defense of the Army (rare for me) I will say that I suspect some of the same separation exists in corporate America. An office employee's wife probably wouldn't hang with the CEO, or if she did she would probably be very careful about her words and actions.
But ... like you said in this post, as military spouses we are all in this together.
One easy, small step to take is to stop identifying spouses by their husband's rank when at a social gathering. For example, at many spouse's gatherings at some point in the evening we go around the room and each person introduces themselves. It often goes like this: "Hi, I'm Jane and my husband is Sgt. Smith." They then might go on to state their husband's position, etc.
Instead why not just say "Hi, I'm Jane Smith. My husband's in A Company. We have three kids...." It's a small step but eliminates rank being involved in someone's first introduction.

blogs.tampabay.com/standingby

[Stacy]

I, also, have a unique perspective. I grew up as an enlisted/NCO's soldier's daughter. In my old life (*grin*) I was an officer in the Army reserves, and my husband is an active duty officer now.

When my husband was deployed all ranks b/w the spouses went completely out of the window. We got along amazingly well. Our core group (those that showed up to every function) consisted of enlisted spouses, NCO spouses, company grade spouses and field grade spouses. It was wonderful!

But I've seen the alternative. And I see it online. Many military spouse message boards have either officer wives or enlisted/NCO wives...separated by choice. I got involved w/ a discussion on one of these boards and it did not go well. :) So, I have been leery of joining in on spouse msg boards since then.

But, I do agree w/ Jan (commenting above me). Civilian companies/corporations do have a lot of the same "rank" distinctions. My husband is an active duty nurse and has moonlighted in civilian hospitals over the years. There is not a lot of socializing among, for example, a doctor's wife and an ultrasound tech's wife.

And I agree w/ Jan about meeting other spouses. I have hung out w/ some of the enlisted/NCO wives of my husband's unit and I never introduce them as Staff Sergeant's wife, or Spc's wife, I always introduce them as, "this is my friend, Tina, our husbands work together."

I hope and wish that the stereotypes will one day be ignored. And that the wives/spouses who have been around longer will mentor/teach the younger wives to ignore them instead of giving any sort of truth to them.

[Margaret]

How can we as a group promote better ties between spouses?

Interesting question. One that has been repeatedly asked not just by military organizations but by sororities, junior leagues, etc. on how to make sure everyone gets along.

One thing that I have found to help is
1. Having guidelines and stating them in the beginning and then reminding everyone of them every so often.
2. Go ahead and say gossiping is not permitted and not allowed.
3. Inform the wives that they need to go beyond rank b/c it is all of the soldiers involved.
4. Keep conversation away from what the soldiers do and their responsibilities. I do believe this is the largest one. Keep topics of conversation on family, children, hobbies, etc. Not what the soldiers do.
5. The officers of the FRG have to be models. They cannot gossip, nor pick sides in an issue but be part of the resolution. Granted no one is perfect and there are always slip ups, which brings me to the next one.
6. Talk and forgive is also needed. Many times someone might say something or pass something along that they might think is okay. But others do not. This is when things need to be talked out and forgiveness is given.

Granted this does not mean that things will go perfectly. When stress is high and people upset it is easier to strike out at someone else. I found out I was being discussed by wives/ mothers in a negative way. A friend told me not to be upset b/c they had to blame someone for their soldiers being deployed and since I was in charge of the phone tree it was easier for people to be angry at me. Sometimes we have to let people vent there frustrations in order to deal with their feelings. Understanding is the last big item.

[MO]

I've seen both sides and honestly, they both put up the barriers. I think perhaps the new LT's & PV1's spouses should be welcomed by all! I'm currently in limbo, my husband was 8 years prior enlisted, went to OCS and now I don't know where I fit in. I would like to just have friends regardless of where they or their husbands are at in their careers.

I'm not sure how to break this cycle but I wish somebody would figure it out soon. We all have so much to offer eachother for support and one group doesn't know any more than the other. I still don't know anything... LOL

[LAW]

MO, I know what you mean. I was a State Dept officer's brat, married army active enlisted (whose dad was a Navy officer) then went National Guard, then he went to WOC... now he's a Chief.. and no one really knows WHAT to call him.. and I have no idea where I fit. Here the FRG is so lightly attended (3 at the last one) it doesn't matter.

I had a best friend when we were Active Duty in Germany, she was an officer's wife.. I was an E5s wife. We got a lot of grief about that one. But when we had unit meetings, we were told WE had no rank... never understood that.

Right now, I don't care what rank your spouse/child is. We are all just in this together. If the 1st Sgt's wife pushes HER rank around, I might push back just to shut her up. or I'll remind her that WE don't have rank.

LAW

[Molly Pitcher]

I think everyone makes some excellent points and really helpful suggestions that hopefully many of us can put into practice on the individual and group level.

Hopefully there will be more to come!

Army&AFwife--I think you hit the nail on the head that fraternization fears contribute. Of course, it is not fraternization if the spouses socialize, but it can get a little trickier as many married people like to socialize at least part of the time as a couple. So, if two wives, for example, enjoy hanging out and, let us say to be stereotypical for a moment, shopping...what happens when Spouse A turns to Spouse B and says, "why don't you and your soldier come over for cards later?" Spouse B knows that her Hubby would consider that a violation of the fraternization policy but she also suspects Spouse A's feelings would be hurt. Even if Spouse A understands, that might still put some damper on their socializing.

I think that is why all of your suggestions are so important--we may have to make a conscious effort to build these ties between spouses as best as we can, given the military personnel policies that we aren't likely to (and perhaps should not wish to) change.

Jan--

I probably should have included the background info that my husband and I are coming from both having civilian careers (lawyer and teacher) and I honestly had not found that to be the case.

Of course, in the civilian world, I am more likely to hang out with others who are aprroximately my age and life-stage and share my interests, so I think there will be some de facto segregation, but I have found it to be less formalized.

In general, I would be careful what I say about my husband to any of his co-worker's spouses, but I really haven't found any strong barriers to spousal interaction--probably because the divisions are less clear. In the military, we have this formal hierarchy among the soldiers, and an Army fraternization policy, which I think contributes to the social divide among spouses.

Of course, this is just anecdotally my experience of recent civilian America. It was probably different in the past and perhaps others (like Stacy) have had different experiences.

[Jennifer]

Having been friends with spouses of all ranks and ages during my tenure as an enlisted wife, I have discovered a few things - it is absolutely possible to be friends across the spectrum, but I think there is a reason that we tend to congregate toward spouses at our own "level", - the main reason being familiarity. For me at least, the Army tends to take over most aspects of my life to some degree, especially during a deployement. I want someone to talk to that I don't have to explain things to. Someone who knows exactly what I'm going through, because they are doing it too. When I want to hang out with my girlfriends, I don't want to "mentor" anybody, and I don't want anybody to "mentor" me.

I have found that most (not all - so don't jump on me!) of my friends who are married to lower enlisted soldiers, are young (often VERY young) and in need of a mentor in this life. That's not to say that I am not willing to be just that for them, but when I am looking for a comfortable, easy friendship, it tends to come easier with a spouse who's husband is close to the same rank as mine.

On the flip side - my friends of higher rank (and officer's wives) almost take on an unconcious mentoring role to me. Not that I mind overall - everyone needs someone to help them through who has been there and done that! But again - not what I'm looking for in my "girlfriends".

So that's my take on it, like or leave it. And it may not be the same for everyone, and that's okay, too!

[Linda]

I am an Army wife who has seen both sides of the coin, regarding my husband's service. He was enlisted for almost 10 years before he was selected to be a Warrant Officer. When he was enlisted, we didn't live on post, and didn't really get involved with the unit or military community...but then again, I don't remember ANY of the unit who lived on post (there was only 40 enlisted homes). But my close friends included a MAJ's wife (the commander's wife, even!), several CPT's wives, and a lot of various enlisted, from SPC to SGM.

Now, though, as the "commander's wife" (my husband is a bandmaster, which gives him command quite often, rare for a Warrant Officer), I don't see the camraderie from the spouses in the unit. They all distance themselves from me. My "non-unit associated" friends come from all walks, enlisted, officer, general officer, and retired, as well as the good old civilian. Unfortunately, there is always the question of "what does your husband do?".

One of the things I recently heard from one spouse in the unit: her husband encouraged her NOT to spend time with me. Because I'm "the old man's" wife. Because it could be considered fraternization. And I think this is where a big problem lies. Our spouses, having been trained not to fraternize, pass this information on to us, and we take it to the extreme. I have tried to invite the spouses with kids (close to the same age as mine) for playdates at NEUTRAL areas, and always get excuses. While some may be valid, I remember being politely turned down, "oh, we can't, the baby's got an appt. at that time, and toddler's sick, etc"...and then seeing them at the local Walmart. I avoided causing embarrassment to the spouse, because she hadn't seen me, but I saw where I stood.

[Molly Pitcher]

I was really worried about putting this out here but so far I am really excited about hearing everyone's insightful thoughts.

Jennifer--

I think you are another one who is spot on in identifying one of the reasons behind this "divide." Although I do think some of that is changing as the military is changing--people entering later in life, enlisted soldiers becoming officers, etc.

People do tend to gravitate towards "like," and I absolutely agree with what you are saying. At the same time, commonalities can be identified in so many areas. I would love to see us all consciously try to transcend the rank of our spouses. (not saying you do not do that--you obviously do--but just putting that thought out into the discussion)

Linda--Again, a great insight!

I think part of the issue, too, is the flip side of what Jennifer pointed out...the military controls so much of our lives. I think some servicemembers may feel not only that they want to avoid the appearance of fraternization, but also that they would prefer their spouses and children not be integrated into this institution that already dominates most of their waking moments. In other words, when he comes home, he doesn't want to hear all about his wife's day with the commander's wife.

Although I respect that school of thought, hopefully the military member will ultimately leave that up to his or her spouse to decide.

[Jewel]

My husband is an Air Force officer with 25+ years and four commands under his belt. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to spouses, both officer and enlisted. However, since the military is unlikely to do away with it's rank structure anytime soon, the issue of how spouses can get along better will continue on.

I am blessed to have made many dear friends over the years. These are ladies who I leaned on during deployments, TDY's, illnesses, births, deaths...the list goes on and on. My dear friends are from all walks of life and their husbands are from all ranks, officer and enlisted, and I'm proud to have known each of them. The one thing I can say about every one of them is that I never assumed I knew what they were like simply because of their husbands' job. I got to know and love them for the special ladies they are and the wonderful gifts they have to give.

I think this is a mistake that we sometimes make, not taking the time to get to know one another. We just simply assume "she's a typical officer's wife" or "she's a typical SGT's wife". Is it really fair to call the commander's wife "a typical officer's wife" just becuase her husband happens to be the commander and she has taken on the unofficial role of caring for the spouses and families of the unit? Aren't we all just volunteers here? It's been my experience that often times we're the most critical of the ones who are trying to do the most good.

Call me "old school", but I also respect and look up to the spouses of senior officers and NCO's. Not because of their husband's position, but because of the experience and knowledge they can share with me. On the other hand there are senior spouses who have set a very poor example to all and I learned what not to do from them!

I have never been "Mrs. So and So"...never have been, never will be. I've just been myself all these years and it's worked pretty good so far! In the end all we can ask is to be respectful of one another and the roles we are playing in this thing we call military life.

[Jennifer]

Another thing I thought about - when my husband was a squad leader in Germany, his guys would come over to our house often and hang out. I really enjoyed having them over and being the "squad mommy", most of them were single, and away from their families for the first time, so it was nice to be able to cook for them and help keep them out of trouble! I was also very involved with the FRG, and through that had become friends with the CO's wife, BC's wife, etc. Once that became known to my hubby's guys, they still came over all of the time, but there would be a lot of "good-natured" ribbing going on - oh be careful what you say, it might make it back to the Colonel...and so on. It made it a little more difficult for my husband, as his guys were a little wary of trusting in him, due to my friendships in higher circles. It made me try to seperate my personal life into sections - one for "my" friends, and one for "our" friends, and I didn't mix the two. It worked for us.

[Bethany]

My mother-in-law was an AF brat. She spent her entire childhood on military bases all over the world. The first thing she told me when my husband, her son, decided to join the AF was something along the lines of... "You better be careful who you talk to and what you say. Everything you do and say counts for or against him, and his career" Her mother was opinionated, and had supposedly gotten her father in trouble over the years. She had also, as a child, felt shunned by children of officers. She always felt that as children of enlisted, she and her brothers were less worthy, less accepted, etc.
So I joined the ranks of military wives absolutely terrified of officers, and their wives, and their children. Luckily, when we finally moved on to our first base, I was just so happy to be back with him that I forgot everything else. That has served me well, forgetting everything else. When I don't take the time to think about rank and instead just meet people at random, I make some amazing friends. What really worked for me was joining groups based on things I was interested in. A Mom's group, where all mothers were welcome, no matter what their spouse's rank was a lifesaver for me.
My mother-in-law had good intentions with her warning to me, but I really think that things have improved over the last 40 years. I certainly don't feel that my children will feel "less" in my husband stays enlisted his whole career, nor do I think they will get the impression that they are "better" if he decides to apply for Officer Training School. I hope I have enough confidence in myself as a human being to be secure, no matter whom I am surrounded by. Maybe that can be part of the solution... teaching mankind as a whole to be happy with who they are, rather then striving to meet someone else's ideals. I guess that is not something that the military can implement, huh? Sorry for getting idealistic!

[tankerswife]

I spent my whole childhood as an AF dependent daughter, then another 4 yrs as an AF wife (the ex), and then a few years as an Army wife (until he retired in 2004). I was not the typical dependent daughter. I knew what each of my parents did in the AF. I knew my ex's job as well as he did. (Yes its been commented more than once that I should have joined myself). I have lots of experience with different aspects of the AF's Wives Club. And then I married an Army man. Wow, that was a culture shock. You weren't kidding when you said that the AF is much more lax than the Army about it all.

I don't know what we can do about it, but here's what I see as some of the very basic issues that separate us right now. And some may be repeats...
1. Although it may not be fraternization for us, it is for the spouses. Which leads to...
2. When you get the wives together, it will happen some time or another when we share our husbands' problems at work, which will most likely include b*tching about their bosses. And that boss might be the spouse of the person sitting next to you. That automatically lends itself to creating an air of separation about what can be shared.
3. The level of experience as a military spouse. Sort of like the accrual of rank, the "older" members have gained experience that automatically puts rank on them in the eyes of the "newer" spouses. I found that although I was relatively new to the Army way of life, because my husband was a senior NCO, the spouses of the junior enisted looked to me for guidance. I didn't know any more than they did, really, but it didn't seem to stop them from coming to me. They assumed that because hubby had been in long enough to be a senior enlisted, I must have been around as well. Guilt by association, so to speak. I know my situation was a little unique, but the thought is the same. It is assumed that as the spouse of a senior member, you have more experience and knowledge, hence you are in more of a leader type position.

Those are just a few issues I've come across. I don't know what, if any, resolution there may be out there. I'm figuring that someone much smarter than me will find an answer.

I've never cared one way or another about rank. I always try to follow the golden rule (no, I don't always make it, but I try). I haven't ever been intimidated by rank. It probably had something to do with working the PAX terminal Space-A counter. When on leave, no one has rank. :-) And that feeling was further solidified when I sat on the phone listening to the commander's wife sobbing because in nearly 22 yrs of marriage it was the first time he missed their anniverary completely, while I was sicker than a dog sitting on the toilet. We're all human and we all have the same everyday lives to take care of with all their inherent joys and heartaches.

[Shanna]

I guess I'm old school, and maybe the minority here, but I think as a spouse we are affiliated with our husband/wife's rank. I think the rules regarding fraternization are there for a reason and if you look at the BIG picture, are still applicable. As a dependent, I don't see the war machine in action, but I wouldn't want any commanding officer to be second guessed or even ignored by the senior NCO because their wives are shopping buddies or because they play cards every other Wednesday night. My old boss had a saying "Casual dress begets casual attitude," meaning as soon as you let go of the formality, chaos can ensue. My dad was in the AF for 20 years, and did 4 years as a first shirt. During that time, we kids were allowed to attend birthday parties and sleepovers with the other kids from his squadron, but Mom and Dad didn't socialize with anyone outside of work sponsored functions. My husband is serving in the AF now. He joined at 28, right after 9-11, so we had the unusual circumstance of being about 10 years older than most of his fellow rank-mates. (for lack of a better word.)
Anyway, we have made WONDERFUL friends with several of the senior NCO's, as they are the same age group, have kids the same age, etc. I, as a spouse, am very careful to not let this familiarity change the way I address the NCO's at a squadron function. I will address our friend as Sgt. So and So to prevent undermining his authority to the other junior enlisted. When dealing with inexperienced, and often times, immature kids fresh out of high school, it is so important to set the right example and give them the authority figure they need. My hubby was an E-3 when I met my best friend who is married to an E-8. We spent many weekends together and continue our friendship, despite their PCS a year ago. Her hubby was not in my husband's squadron, which I think makes a huge difference.
As for officers and their wives/husbands, I have a few friends who are of the "O" category. I do take into consideration whether or not they are in my husband's chain of command. If they are, I try to maintain a courteous relationship, but not a friendship. After all, I don't want to compromise anyone's career nor do I want a friendship to possibly compromise a mission that could result in someone being injured. I will ALWAYS lend a helping hand to anyone in need, from E-1 to O-9. As far as helping a spouse in need while the hubby/wife is deployed, rank plays no factor and we're all one family. I don't think milspouses should use their partner's rank as a means to demean or ostracize anyone, but I think ALL milspouses should hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct and ethic. I may not be legally obligated by the UCMJ, code of conduct or military oath of service, but having been born into the Air Force, I hold all of it's values and traditions dear and try to live my life as an example to my friends, family and especially my children. Whether you like it or not, Military is a way of life, not just a job. When you marry into the military, you don't just get a husband, but a whole rulebook with him.

[Jennifer]

Shanna - well put.

[Jewel]

Thank you, Shanna, for finding the words that I could not to express what I was thinking and feeling about this subject. If you are old school, then I'm right there in class with you!

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think it boils down to respect. Both for the military and all its traditions, rules and regulations and for all spouses be they officer or enlisted. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk to each other and our active duty spouses. (After all, if we don't talk to one another, how are we able to care for the families in our units, especially during deployments and this time of war?) What it mean is that we need to be mindful that there will be those times when we need to respect a friend's spouse's rank and position in the unit.

I've seen the magic that happens when spouses of all ranks work together to achieve a common goal. Whether it is spouses who come together on a moments notice to help feed flood victims who suddenly find their world torn apart or the volunteer spouses who care so deeply about their roles as unit Key Spouses and making sure our families are well cared for and informed. There is no end to what we can do when we work, respectfully, with one another.

PS: Shanna, my thanks to your father for the four years he spent as a First Shirt. I admire all 1st Shirts so much and have a deep appreciation for how difficult their job can be.

[tankerswife]

Yes, Shanna, very well put. I was like you. ( I say was because hubby is retired and we don't have much interface with military these days.) I'll lend a hand to anyone, but I am very respectful of rank. Not intimidated (which I think is what happens to most of the younger ones) but respectful.

[dizzylizzie]

i've read all the comments above and i think my view is a bit different. (and i'll probably get flamed here but oh well)
whenever i'm introduced or somewhere with (for example the toddler playgroup with our daughter) someone of the 'O' class i feel intimidated. i'm always afraid i will say something monumentally stupid and cause harm to my hubs' career. so i tend to just stay away. and from what ive seen the wives with hubbies in the higher ranks (but not all mind you, just most that ive come across) walk around like their better than the rest of us. it doesnt help either the way the army sets up an atmosphere on base to do everything it can to separate the enlisted from the O class. i can remember being heavily 9 months pregnant and having to park in the back of the commisary parking lot (payday weekend lol) waddling in the sizzling june heat and just wanting to spit on the 'reserved for officer X'parking spots, that were empty! but i still had to waddle in the heat because i wasnt 'good enough' to park up front. maybe they dont do it on purpose but the army sure does make enlisted second class citizens and us wives third class.

now i'm friendly with my hubs plt sgt's wife, we carpool our boys to tae kwon do, and we're friendly but as someone mentioned before its hard when my hubs mentions something dumb or jerky that her husband did and i cant say anything. its so easy to forget that her guy is my guys boss.
so in a way it seems the army has us set up to be divided. i dont like it much, i'd rather just relax and just be who i am.
thats just my take on it.

[Molly Pitcher]

I just wanted to clarify that my post isn't about doing away with fraternization rules (which only apply to the military personnel), but rather about building bridges of understanding between spouses.

I also see a difference for being polite (towards all, I hope), showing respect (for an office, a rank, age, or experience), and having genuine admiration for someone (because of their actions and efforts). I think you can respect and admire someone and still be her friend (at least as civilians--I am not qualified to speak about military hierarchy).

dizzylizzie--I certainly wouldn't flame you...I just wish I could give you a hug, frankly! I'm sorry that you've gotten that impression from O wives and that you find them intimidating.

Just a couple of thoughts I would like to put out there:

* For both junior officers and junior enlisted, promotion is fairly automatic for the first few ranks. While it is better to work in an environment where your superiors are happy with you, and yes there are some people out there who cannot separate what someone's spouse does/says from that person's job performance, there is very little you can do at this point to directly "mess up" your husband's career.

I have yet to see anyone's wife's antics (and I've seen some zany antics in the past few years, from wife of E-1 up the enlisted and officer spectrum) mess up his career.

Of course, I would not suggest testing that idea--but I am just hoping it will help you relax. The best way to support his career is to be supportive of him.

* My husband is the one with his rank--the fact that I married him does not necessarily automatically mean I have any sort of authority, special training, or experience. Sure, some O (AND NCO) spouses may be older and have more experience (and I would certainly advise you to in general show respect for age and experience)...but each spouse should really stand on his or her individual merits, not "wear rank." Remember that junior officer's spouses are just as likely to be in their early 20s and new to the whole military thing, too.

* As I mentioned in another comment, it is always a good idea to separate your husband's work complaints from your conversations in your social life...not just in the military, and not just when there is a hierarchical relationship. If you have to vent about these things, I would seek out someone completely unrelated to your husband's work (preferably family, or perhaps a friend on another base or at least another unit, or even civilian friend)

* Just to specifically address the parking space issue--remember those are generally only for REALLY SENIOR officers. The vast majority of officers (and their spouses) can't park there, either! I was a sister waddler recently and it wouldn't have mattered what our husband's ranks are--just an example of how we may have more in common than we might think.

[Molly Pitcher]

Another thought after responding to dizzylizzie:

Some of the enlisteds' spouses may not realize this but a lot of officers' spouses with whom I have spoken feel a similar pressure--a fear that if she does something to lose the respect of the E's spouse or the E, it will reflect poorly on her husband and create a lack of respect for him.

Just wanted to put out there that I think the fear of reflecting poorly on our military personnel is not limited to E spouses...

**BTW-I tend to use her for the spouse because I am a "her" and because DH is combat arms, but I don't want to exclude male spouses with my choice of pronouns**

Just one more thing--I think EVERYONE in these comments has introduced some great thoughts, suggestions, ideas, and has done so in a clear way with respect for a topic that has potential for being controversial...so THANK YOU ALL!!!

[ArmyWife_Infantryman]

I was in one good FSG group when we first got married. The CO's wife was the president of FSG but she wanted the enlisted's wives to get involved and pretty much run everything. She put me in (an E-6 wife) as treasurer and I realized real quick that I was the main one to do everything. I thought I was just going to keep the records straight and write the checks for the expenses but I ended up being the person finding out information for the questions the younger wives had, and always the one they called with their problems. I would call the CO's wife for answers and she would help out when she could but told me she was just the "president" title and that together we were going to get a team of ladies together no matter what ranks their husbands were and we would all help each other. It was the greatest FSG and I still have a lot of those ladies as friends 10 years later. We had a lot of fun and treated the soldiers to several BBQ's, holiday parties, and had outings for the kids. We looked forward to our monthly meetings.

Another post I was at, they were begging for people to step up in leadership and asking how we can get more wives involved so when I volunteered to help out--the officers wife told me "We need to keep the leaders in the upper ranks" I told her well there is your answer to why you can't get wives involved and in the 3 years I was there, they only called me a few times and the officers wives were the main ones that showed up to the meetings. There shouldn't be ranks with the wives. The younger wives are usually intimidated by officers wives and unless those officer wives reach out to the enlisted groups and make them feel welcome there is always that barrier between them and don't ever make FSG meetings into a gossip session. It should be fun and informative and something to look forward to.

[Cordelia]

I don't have an issue with the clubs being separate as long as both groups are treated equally.
What do I mean by that? For starters, equal accomodations for both groups. It is not fair to house the OWC in a nice ballroom at the O Club while the ESC gets regulated to some shack far across post as there is no E Club. Build the E Club so that all ranks have a place to hang out.
Second-equal coverage of both groups in the post media. Why is it that everytime a member of the OWC says "Boo", a reporter is there. And yet it takes an Act of Congress for the ESC to get a mere mention in the post newspaper? People notice these things and it builds resentment.
Third,do not perpetuate stereotypes within the ranks. At my very first FRG meeting I naively gave away my husband's rank(At the time, E4). During the rest of the meeting, everyone started harping on me to go on WIC. There is nothing wrong with WIC when it is necessary, but it wasn't necessary for us at that time. Would anyone have given me grief had I been an LT's wife? Probably not. Don't assume we can't afford to feed out children just because we are an enlisted family. Instead, simply put the WIC brochures on the table at the FRG meeting and let the wives-all wives-pick them up at will. And for the love of God, do not offer a class called "Holiday Budgeting" at the ESC! How insulting is that?! Why isn't this class held at the OWC,too? On the flip side, why can't a themed luncheon be held for the ESC ladies? Why can't there be a shopping and social hour before the ESC meetings?
Sigh.As I type this, I realize that making things "separate but equal" would be hard. So I guess my final answer is to say, "Combine the groups". It would be hard and there would be catfighting along the way...but, heck, there's catfighting no matter which group you belong to!

[Ann]

My only concern is preferential treatment of officer's wives versus enlisted wives. For example, a PCM change request. An officer's wife can simply call and make a request to have an off base doctor but an enlisted wife must submit documentation to support her case but then be declined. How fair is this?? Anyone have this same situation?

[Molly]

Ann--where did you get this information? I believe that this is done through TRICARE, and they could care less whether you spouse is a private or a general.

Is it possible that the spouses either had different forms of TRICARE (Prime v Standard) or lived in different places (on v. off post; within close radius of the MTF or outside of it)?

[Phancy D.]

My husband and I have been a part of the Air Force for 4 yrs. Our first base I can honesty say was the worst experience that no one prepared me for. I was invited to have dinner in the home of a officer's wife and her best friend(also an officer's wife). The whole time I was there, if they did not ignore me they spoke over me when they posed a question that I was suppose to answer or the spoke to each other.(I'm sorry, did I come at a bad time?) I can not control the actions of others, I can only control my own. Being the newbie at a base is not easy and the higher ranking officer's WIFE'S make it even harder for those that do not fit into their social circle. Truth be told, they did not start off as officer's wife, their attitudes should reflect more in the lines of what it was like when they first came in. True, they already know what it feels like to be nervous, insecure, and out of place. Now that their husbands became a higher ranking officer, should not give them any reason to look down on anybody. Visiting this woman left a bad taste in my mouth. She never called me back and I did not call her for anything, why should I? She did not do anything to make me feel welcomed in her home. She did not give me any suggestions of different things I could do around town. She or her friend did not try to find out anything about me or my family. I felt I was invited there just to be judged on the way I looked. I feel if you would like to make a good impression on people, you do not even have to be of a higher rank, whatever branch of service that you are in, find out where the new people moved to. Pay them a visit. Welcome them with a gift basket made of fruit and asked to come in to speak with them about different things other than themselves. If a higher ranking officer's wife wants to prove that they are better, display it with a a gesture of kindness. WILLINGLY. Stop turning your noses up at people and show that you know what it feels like to be new/parent/in town/single now that your spouse is over sees etc... With so much moving, making rank and meeting so many people, an act of true kindness just seems to fade away over the years. Before my husband and I got into the Air Force, we went years without a lot of different comforts that now being in the military has now helped us out tremendously. But we do not act as if we are better than anybody. Be opened minded, down-to-earth, humble, and have a good sense-of-humor, you never know the type of affect you will have on a person's life just by being kind. No matter if one just made it though basic training, or been in over 20 years of service, short, tall, big or small, no one is better than the next person. Karma will always come back 3 folds. Misery loves company. Remember to say please, thank you and excuse me. I find out that shopping in the commissary, those women are very rude.

[Shanna/NCO's Wife]

I agree with many of the comments above but having served 8 years in the army before becoming an "Army Wife" I do think that rank plays a very important part. There are rules for the military for a reason. Take for instance being at a friends house who is not in the military and talking about normal things from family to kids and of course your husband, to that friend it means nothing and she/he simply take it at face value and lend their comments. Now, put yourself in the position of being an NCO's wife and trying to have the same friendship that you have with your other friends with one of his enlisted soldiers wives. You have to tread such a fine line that you never can really gain a true friendship b/c no matter how much you may want to be friends with this person, you can't talk about your husband/wife, which most of us do without even thinking about it. I am a firm believer that the fraternization policy that is set in place for the military is there for good reason. I have seen it one to many times with that line being crossed and people getting hurt or even worse causing discord in their husbands/wifes' platoon. No matter how much we would love to just take people at face value, it is very difficult in the military because what you do reflects on your military spouse. Tons of people try to come in and say they don't marry their husbands rank, but in essence you do. You are expected to uphold that standard and respectability that comes along with the rank that your spouse holds. I guess it is much easier for me to look at this b/c being in the army taught me the ways of the life and in that turn it makes me a better wife to my husband. I stand behind him no matter what and NEVER EVER take the side of others over him. That is just the life and NOT ALL WOMAN are cut out to live it. It is hard and you have to give up a lot of things you normally wouldn't, including friendships because no matter what, your husband or wife is in the military and these things apply, even if you don't like them. There are codes of conduct for us as spouses, just as there are for the soldier,sailor, marine or airman. You can't marry into the military and expect your everyday life to stay the same as it was before you married, because it won't. There will be moves and changes, no matter what. The quicker the life is accepted and lived, the better off that spouse will be.

When a deployment comes or another wife/husband simply needs help based on not your friendship but your respect of the person, it makes completing that task much easier in the long run.

[Missy]

For me, my issue has always been that enlisted wives are stereotyped unfairly..not only by o wives but by each other,soldiers and leadership.

For example, my "uniform" is a J Crew twinset, 7 jeans and Italian loafers. I wear this to the FRG or ESC and get accused of "trying too hard". Would people rather see me wearing a Betty Boop tshirt,cutoffs and flip-flops? Can only officers' wives look nice? As an enlisted wife,I can't win.
Dress up(which is "me") and be called "snob" or dress down and be called "trash?

In many ways,enlisted wives are almost expected to "live the part". When I refused WIC, my ex-DH's chain and peers called me foolish instead of praising us for making it on our own.When I said "No thanks" to Santa's Workshop gifts(toys offered to needy junior enlisted families), people rolled their eyes. When I dressed my dds in Gymboree and Hanna Andersson, people assumed that I was bleeding DH dry when, in fact, I bought the outfits at consignment stores or on Ebay. There were days when I thought it would be easier to be Ellie the Stereotypical Enlisted Wife instead of being true to myself.

Look at it this way. Enlisted wives are seldom if ever included in social activities within a Unit. No coffees.No teas.No formals.The only ones who are included are the CSMs' wives and they darn well deserve to be. And consider for a moment that the largest military post has no Enlisted Club where spouses(or even soldiers,I'm sad to say) can meet. No wonder the enlisted wives don't care about appearances or how they come across-no one cares about them! Maybe if people start having expectations of them and including them, they may step up and act a bit better.

And how about combining spouse clubs? Fort Leonard Wood did it as did Fort Knox. Did the world cease to exist because a Captain's wife sat next to a SSG's wife at lunch? No!

Earlier I mentioned expectations. There were times during ex-DH's time in when I wished the Senior Enlisted Wives would have set those expectations for the younger wives. On one occasion,the ESC held an event at the General's house. I have no idea how the ESC President arranged that,but she did.This event took place at the beginning of OIF,and it was very moving to be invited to the home of this high-ranking officer during wartime. As we all know, most enlisted wives never lay eyes on a General or his wife,let alone be entertained in their home.

Anyway,I approached the leadership of the club and suggested that a dress code for the event be mentioned. Not ballgowns,but business casual or Sunday dress.Well,the leadership elected not to do that and people showed up for the event in jeans and sweats.Not all but enough. I was so angry...not at the transgressors,but at the leadership for letting them fail.

So,you see,there are enlisted wives who are not trashy...who do not have baby after baby...who don't,drink or smoke...who don't accept handouts..who want to feel accepted and included...the question is,are the permitted to be?